Personally I think adding module skills as a prerequisite for new pilots to train for a hull to be a major error of judgement. The reason given (so people aren't confused by an apparently shorter training time) is weak, no-one should be surprised that you have to train more than just the basic hull skill to improve your abilities in a given ship beyond the absolute basics required to fly it. However my main problem is if forces people to fly ships for their given role rather than whatever purpose they want. The best example are command ships, only a proportion fly them because they want to boost fleets, many fly them because they are good ships for many other roles (such as solo/small gang pvp)

Also on that note, say you have command ships I and all the warfare skills to 4. After the patch I appreciate you will retain command ships I and still be able to fly the ship, but can you train command ships to level II? (I apologise if this has already been answered).

"If it worked before it will work after"... not true. To get to the maximum bonuses on BCs which BTW I already have, I will have to re-skill 3 of them! Most people do not understand the impact of this, see when that happens!

I didn't ask for this change! Today I have BC 5, I can fly all BCs with max bonuses, therefore to be fair you have to give me BC 5 for all races. If I have BC 4 I must get BC 4 for all races. Are you seriously thinking that I am going to let this happen and keep quiet? I am losing in this.

I want to continue playing EVE but I am getting more and more disenfranchised for every "expansion" which I am sorry to say it doesn't expand anything except for people's rage. Where is the expansion? I would call it reconfiguration to make things easy for noobs and give hell to people who have already invested lots of bucks into EVE. Do you recall how you killed incursions for example?

I would like to recommend a couple of things to CCP:

1. Get a proper CEO
2. Get proper executive management
3. For speeches and videos use actors so that you get the best result
4. Recruit someone who helps you align to your customers' needs and priorities
5. Play EVE yourself with a standard character that you must train from scratch, just like me

This is my 2 cents.

Rage +1

I have read the DEV blog and the fact that it's not clear to me it means it's not written well enough.
To your other point, yes I can vote and I have the right to criticise a decision or things that I think are not right. Why would you have the forums then? You can ban me if you wish.

That is interesting. Let's see how many people get it. My point stands.

No. My vote is my multiple subscriptions. When I decide to vote NO I will stop paying. Is that good enough to you?

Could you double check this? It's the exact opposite of how I (and many others) read the previous dev opinion on this question.

Alrigh folks, good news.

We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore.

Ex:

You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.


Hope that's clear - trying my very best

thank you for that, however this means that you get one racial BC skills at level 5. What about the rest? I can fly all BCs at level 5 now.

OK, many thanks for this. I really appreciate your time and effort to help. I hope you are right and for now I am going to stick to your explanation. Are you saying that my posts are disrespectful?

I just want to be clear; I know you were using amarr as an example. Will I also get Gallente BC5, Minmatar BC5, and caldari BC5 for having my current skill at BC5?

You realize that at EVERY CCP post there is that BLUE arrow, which when you click it takes you to the NEXT CCP answer (if such exists)? Just a few clicks would have taken you to your answer, and it would surely not have taken as long as browsing 19 pages.

You're a saint.

After being subjected to so much stupidity i DO feel a certain desire to do the offender some minor physical or psychological harm, comparable to the pain inflicted to me. Being civilized, I'm just suppressing that desire.

Quick question (not complaining) - sorry edited once more without using neural remaps

Right now I am 22 days away from flying Astarte (according to evemon) (17 using a remap)

After the change I will be 42 days away (using my bonus remap) (59 without using my remap) with the requirement of:

Skirmish Warfare V
Information Warfare V
Armored Warfare V
Siege Warfare V
Warfare Link Specialist IV
Leadership V

---

These are the remaining skills I lack from flying Astarte:

Leadership V
Warefare Link Specialist IV
Command Ships I
Assault Ships IV
Heavy Assault Ships IV

---

Do I have time to finish off the remaining skills to get to Astarte? or should I just use my remap now for the booster skills and start training those up?

command ships V, long time ago, does that mean I don't have to worry about a thing?

Thanks a bunch. That is cool. So i'll focus on getting Leadership V, Warfare Link Specialist IV, inject command ships skillbook (atleast train to I for safe measure) then i'm golden.

And since they removed the Cruiser V racial requirements for each command ship and replaced it with a Racial BCV skill i'll be pretty much set to fly every command ship because I just finished BCV, racial frig IV, racial cruiser IV.. right?

i was looking at the ship skill changes and noticed the Providence changes advanced spaceship command lvl1 and will require lvl 5 now, so i have only lvl 2 so does that mean after the changes i wont beable to fly my Feniri unless i train to lvl 5?

as i have looked mostly on the Rorqual ship skills i see that there is some new skill added to there required skill list
and i'm talking about the : ORE Industrial 3 , Mass Production 5 , Advanced Mass Production 4 , and Industrial Reconfiguration 1

and the Orca will be needing the : ORE Industrial 3

as i can fly the Rorqual now i assume i will get the now required skill aswell and not just the new destroyer and battlecruiser skills :)

hope someone can give me some info in this matter as it will be nice to know :)

The devs could have just locked this thread, deleted it, and made a new sticky answering the question, and kept that sticky locked down as well so the giant message answering that question is the first and only thing anyone sees.

It seems this thread is being used for QA of the same Q. In which case the thread's purpose isn't being fulfilled.

Perhaps I only want one Battle cruiser skill (edit) or maybe none at all - and I qualify for getting all four race BC's.
I have a certain amount of skill points that I want to stay under and maybe the other race BC's will be nothing to me but a clone upgrade burden that I wish not to bare for the duration of my eve career.

This is not the first time that my training has led to be subverted by game-play changes which not only costs me game time to train in vain. My PvP toon only trained BC and Command ship to give bonuses to mining alts that funded him or her ... which was the only way they could before the Orca arrived which by the way arrived just before him or here got the mining leadership skills that were needed to give the bonuses. Which... completely wasted ALOT of my toons TIME (=money) and a continued burden of a substantial higher clone cost.

Now you are telling me that in addition to this waste, I will now be burdened for this SOLO PvP toon 3 additional lvl 5 BC skill points.

It would be nice, CCP if you could find it in your heart to AT LEAST have an option to delete unwanted skills ( a mind wipe) especially when you screw with the entire planning of a toon in such a long-term game as EvE.

It is do-able, and fair. Your changes cant simply be compensated by here ya go refund of some skill points and suck it up on planning your character.

A refund would be nice but I would at least enjoy removal of skills trained for a purpose that was moved to a different ship... read more slowly...

The training and planning for my solo PvP had nothing to do with command ships. i had miners to fund them... but wait, i can have my PvP account help my miners by givving bonuses with BC's and command ships... seemed right so I started my journey of training for it since he or she was closest to BC and command it seemed a wast to train a new toon for the task... so BC 1-2-3 and now for the mining bonuses mining foreman V leadership V then mining director... and so I end up with a solo PvP toon that has all that and also the module fell under the Skirmish Warefare catagory at the time.. which was 4 more lvles that wern't needed... tada... orca appeard, modules changed and I gotta swallow it whole like i like it... perhaps it is a perspective.... try to see it from here.

Complete SP reset is in no way needed if they were just able to implement skillpoint deletion

Hay I just thought of a potential problem. If someone doesn't have "Logistics" trained to V they can still train command ships. They can only fly half of them right now, but once this change goes live if someone has command ships at V they are going to actually be able to fly all the command ships w/ max bonuses... amiright? You dig what I'm layin' down there?

I have a question - if you're removing unnecessary skills as prerequisites - Industry V for mining barge - since a lot of miner alts just mine, and there's a main who does all the refining and production
and if you want something to replace it with - refining - since at least that can be put towards mining crystals, or maybe mining upgrades... or ice harvesting - just not a productions skill, it's like having controlled bursts (reduction in gun cap usage) as a prereq for a minmatar ship

Yes, and then the CCP employees go on summer break, leaving their customers to deal with whatever untested pile of crap was hoisted on them.

CCP's cycle of "agile" development > vacation > put out the fires is tiresome.

If i currently have a dedicated alt trained to fly carrier/mothership will I get battleship level 5 reimbursed?

Well, not "no matter what". I have an alt that just trained to carrier. The alt has essentially no gunnery skills and poor missile skills, as they are purely a carrier pilot. Caldari Battleship 5 does nothing for them other than let them train Carrier 1.

You are an... not so wise person. You dont understand your luck!
NOW YOU CAN CROSS-TRAIN CARRIERS IN A WINK!

Just imagine!

A brand new world...
__Where everyone
____Can fly
______A carrier
________Being a flavor of the month!

No need to plan ahead~
No need to bother with fleet doctrines~
The choice was difficult. Now it's not.
Relax. Take a deep breath. And step into the universe of tedium.

So does this mean the same for sub-titans like people already able to use freighters? They will require advanced ship command 5; so, what happens when you can fly a freighter now with say ASC lvl 4? You are able to keep flying it without training the skill to lvl 5?

I had this question before when losing skill points in a specific skill that is requirement for other skills; i got podded last week and got my answer to that question by losing 250k SP in cruise missiles. Until I trained cruise missiles to lvl 5 again, i wasnt able to use the cruise missile specialization already injected.

Also, since you are increasing the training time for the freighter without giving any improvements on it, how about reducing its signature, give it 1 high slot for a prototype cloak, or give it some kind of slots for tactics. Make a tech II version of it at least OTHER THAN A NOMAD, one that cant jump but CAN haul a **** load , keeping the same slow warp speed and align time BUT giving it ability to cloak, low signature to make lock times of other ship within seconds of the same time it takes to align and warp (45 seconds currently with my skills).

Give it some kind of improvement over standard freighter to where it can go through low "safely" but NOT made for null (not able to jump). With a warp speed of 0.8 not like someone cant figure out what gate its in warp and intercept it before it even lands :)

OK - you still keep command ships V, and it should still give you the ship bonuses, if it gets slightly buggy, you're a vet, I'm presuming you're already close to the pre-reqs, (which aren't specaialist link skills, just the doctrine skills, and the general link skill)
I agree that T2 ships are becoming less useful (cov-ops - I'm looking at you, since that's the T2 I mainly fly), but T3's are getting their link nerfed and command ships are getting a re-work, which will hopefully see a balancing so they're better at linking than T3's and at the same time can boast a better gank/tank than the command T3

This whole Battlecruiser skillpoint distribution plan is a disaster in the making.

One of the factors that has led to BC's being dominant at every level of EVE's pvp is the overpowered effect of the race-spanning BC skill (especially BC5).

BC's have already all but invalidated battleships and cruisers, except recons/logistics and other niche roles, at all levels of PVP bar coalition/large-alliance warfare. And even at the coalition/alliance level, it's taken a recent, crude and rather obvious nerf to the Drake/Cane to stop them trumping more expensive compositions through sheer bang-for-buck value.

By choosing not to reimburse the skillpoints for the BC skill, and instead handing everyone with BC5 free racial maximum skill, CCP have missed an opportunity to de-buff BC's.

In fact worse than that, they've handed an incentive to anyone with a brain to train BC5 before the summer. Meaning in the future we'll have a situation where there will be far, far more people in game with every racial BC skill trained to 5 than there are with racial cruiser and BS skills trained to 5, increasing further the pattern of everybody flying Battlecruisers.

I highly doubt this is being done to be 'fair', or for game balance. It smacks of preempting whines.

No SP refund, No Re-map. 2 Years ago I trained a char to fly an orca. I didn't want to mine - I just wanted to have a hauling ship and at the same time I thought what the hell, I can use it to boost mining ops as well. So for 2 years I've had the use of the ship. Now, if someone had told me 2 years ago that I could wait until Summer 2013 and get the orca without some useless mining skills - would I have waited? - NO! I wanted the ship back then, I skilled accordingly and have had the use of the ship for 2 years. My only concern would be that due to the new skill changes I had to learn some other skills to get me back to where I am today - and CCP has imo satisfactorily dealt with that problem. There are only 2 situations where people can feel unfairly treated with this method. 1) The guys who haven't read the forums/devblogs and are now skilling unnecessary skills to get into a ship a few days before the expansion hits. They will be pissed off - but we all know our answer to that one. Eve requires knowledge and keeping up to date on blogs and announcements - so unlucky for you matey. And 2) The guys who want to fly a ship now but also know that the skill requirements are changing. They either skill unnecessary skills now OR wait for the changes. They have to decide to either do it now or wait for the change depending on how much they want to fly a ship now. I see no reason for SP refund or re-map. Roy

Never mentioned my teacher.

What I said was that If I was told 2 years ago that the skill requirements were changing and I could have waited for the reduced skill requirements (and thus not fly the orca for 2 years) I still would have trained it back then because I wanted to fly the ship.

I have had 2 years use of it and given the choice again even with the knowledge we have now - I still would have trained the ship then and as a result I have had 2 years enjoyment (?) of flying the ship.

The redundant skill is going to sit in my total - but the payoff is that I have had 2 years of use of the ship and that was worth the SP investment I made.

I don't have much problems with young characters exploding in carriers. But, exploding carriers are not an ISK sink. It is a faucet that injects ISK into the game through insurance payouts.

Alright can someone give me the skinny on what I should train now?

I already know I should train bc and dessie5 and make sure I get cruiser 3 for all races.

But what about the other ships? Are they adding any secondary skills such that I should train them now so that I don't have to learn the pointless secondary skills in order to fly them later?

I guess I would like it if we had a list of ships that are getting extra secondary/tertiary skills before you can fly them, and what extra skills will be required for each that aren't required now.

That way I can at least inject the skills that I might be able to now but might not be able to inject later.

Its difficult to see from the graphs what new secondary skills are being added.

I don't want someone to look at this character and tell me what i should train.


I just want to know what ship classes are having secondary/tertiary skills added or increased.

I'm not sure what you mean.

In my experience, Eve is also the only MMO where there isn't a finite number of skill points. If any skill, ship or item is nerfed, you can still do other things as you'll be getting more SP to spend. It is only important to allow respecs when you have a finite number of SP.

You can also still train the required skills if you think them useful. Speed to sitting in an Orca is irreverent as you're already there.

Reading comprehension ftw.

The character skilling an Orca after the patch will have a distinct disadvantae over Roy's Orca Alt: unless we also implement time travel, he will not be able to train at reduced skill times AND have used an Orca for 2 years.

There is another - hopefully the main - reason for no SP reimbursements: It goes completely contrary to EVE's skill/attribute system, where attributes decide your future skill speed. It's all about making sacrifices for having that skill you need NOW rather than LATER.

You knew 3 months ago that there was a skill patch. If it was that important to you, you could have waited until specifics are known.

Did you petition and get a GM's answer that nothing will change regarding the freighter skill requirements? That's the only scenario that would really justify a reimbursement and I find it a bit unlikely.

It takes only a little research and some small measure of brains to realize what an ISK faucet vs. an ISK sink is.

Hint: Ships are not built from ISK.

I'm not talking about reduced skill times via learning skills, i'm talking about reduced skill times via training AFTER the patch.

I sincerely hope even you would realize that a char that will START training in about 3 months can't possibly have been using his Orca for 2 years, now?

No, the only relevant measure is time invested. SP/h are not a fixed number.


Let's say I'm skilling up weapon skills and am therefore mapped PER/WIL.
If I wish to dabble in PI i can decide to do so NOW and reap immediate benefits or after a remap and thus have delayed benefits. This would directly affect my SP/h and thus my hours invested when i arrive at the same SP amount.


Skilling an Orca a year ago vs. after the patch is the exact same decision, just a tiny bit more abstract, as the precise benefit (WHEN will CCP cook up their next skill changes that affect Orca skills) and cost (HOW will Orca skills change) was an unknown factor when the decision was made. However, it's not like CCP never touched their skill system, so it was still a decision between NOW and THEN, because you knew that CCP could always change skill requirements.


Let's take another example, carrier skills. How would you go about reimbursing pilots, do you want to check how many hours they spent sitting in a BS? Do you want to take into account, how they used their remaps? Because that information is relevant, as you can currently split carrier skills cleanly into INT and PER based without any fixed order to the remap sections. After the patch however, the INT section will have to be strictly before the PER section, because jump drive skills will be a requirement for carrier skills. So there is some likelyhood the difference is not simply the difference between BS III and BS V. How much value would a bonus remap used up in the process have?

If a Dev could answer this question it would be awesome.

The comment on skill point reimbursement if there are "no racial frigate/cruiser" skills present is quite ambiguous, and I would like some clarification as to whether it applies to the case of no frigate/cruiser skills at all, or missing specific racial firgate/cruiser skills.

Example:

Prior to skill split:
Amarr Frigate 4
Amarr Cruiser 3

Gallente Frigate 4
Gallente Cruiser 3

Battlecruiser 4

(assuming no other skills)

would a character with the above skills be given the skill points (not the skills themselves) for minmatar battlecruiser 4 and caldari battlecruiser 4 since there are no frigate/cruiser skills that correspond to those two races? or would the character simply be given the amarr and gallente battlecruiser skills, and no skill point reimbusment?

Any clarification is greatly appreciated.

With regards to games, if you are considering anything other than fun for your return on money/plex, you seriously need to re-evaluate your life priorites! Yes, you can translate your subscription to "x SP per payment" but that doesn't make you look good.

You also need to explain why respecs are even more important with "infinite" skillpoints. You can still learn what is needed and isn't that the important desire? If you can no longer do what you want, that fuels respecs.

I consider the word nerf to be a generalised adjective of irrelevant, so it will help me to understand you if you explain what nerf means to you. Making skills irrelevant means fewer people will buy them, which in general terms is a nerf, isn't it?

I'm very confused by this next bit. Either already having the ship skills is good or not. You can't claim both.

You've been making use of the ship long before (months/years?) a character that gets into an Orca after this skill change goes ahead. Why are you disregarding that?

The Mining barge skill was irrelevant to you once you had injected the Industrial Command Ships skill. If you had lost the Mining barge skill, you could still have continued training your Industrial Command Ships skill. Read some of the replies in this thread from people that had been podded without up-to-date clones.

So why are you complaining now?

And why don't you not already have the useful skills if they are useful?

Thank you for your input, but my question was not regarding the battlecruiser skill split but rather this specific passage in the dev blog

Of course being older does give him an advantage. The only distinction you could make is with Alts that have been passively skilled and never used, but in that case the player would still have tons of advantages over a newbie (from his main/other alts).

EVE is the MMO with the LEAST catch up mechanisms out there.

I thought about considering this skill patch an attempt at a minor catch up mechanism by CCP for a while, until i realized that with the immense changes to cross skilling capitals now, most veterans will profit at least as much as a newer player.

sorry but that doesnt answer my question because i only trained warfare link specialist to 4 and the new cs will need armor, skirmish and so on at 5 (http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/64158/1/SkillCommandShip.jpg).

So what will happen in that case?

A disadvantage balanced by the advantage of being older.

And we all know that to be a blatant lie. Try playing a specialized char to beat that PvP pilot with his off-grid booster alt.

A relevant argument would be, that a group of newbs can actually gang up on a veteran here with a marginal chance of success. However, please keep in mind that the time period where you're considered newb skill-wise is lightyears removed from other MMOs, so that the power difference is really a non factor in those other games.

The capital changes give older players an advantage, because cross skilling into another race's carrier or dreadnaught or even titan is a valid option for them with the changed requirements of which they already fulfil most, being already a captal pilot in the first place.
It is not a valid option for the new guy, as he will still be busy skilling fitting skills for his first carrier when the veteran has rounded out all 4 races' carriers.

It hurts because having Free SP is a very powerful thing. It means that if CCP adds some new ship skills you can instantly specialize in them. It hurts because if your current FOTM ship gets nerfed, you can instantly cross-train into a new race.

*Especially* when you are talking about BS 5, which is up to 6 million SP that would go into free SP.

Sorry sometimes i have trouble understanding something.

Now i get what u meant, just thought all skills listed in the ship prereqs are required to fly it. But the secondary skills
are only there to get to the primary skills.

Thanks for getting that through my pighead.

The fact, that so much SP were trained in Skills, wich are not necceserly needed, would be the exact argument why the SP should be reimbursed. This also holds true for a nerv of a Shiptype, since one would have trained these skills exactly, because to fly that ship, with exactly that stats.

I like to add, that i-¦d also would say, that in case of an reimbursement, there should also be the necessarity to bring the corresponding skills to the lvl that is needed for the new prereq-¦s.

I agree, but i don-¦t think that any of that would get in consieration again , since the official statement of the handling is already made and this option surely was already on the table. Or am i mistaken?

Edit:

That would really create a mess ...

I think you just want free skill points handed to you from CCP so that the training you once did put in to get a carrier can be used one more time to boost your character.

You still have not adressed two of my main issues:

- How would you propose to find out if an old and now obsolete prerequisite skill has never been used?
I highly doubt that it has been logged for every single carrier pilot if he ever sat in a battleship after skilling past BS 3 or every Orca pilot, if he ever sat in a mining barge. Solutions on a case by case basis are not an option due to the manpower requirement on CCP's part

- What about mappings? BS V is a skill that would most likely have been trained at a very effective mapping, most likely Per 10/Wil 4. Would the reimbursed skillpoints have a property attached that they can only be used on skills with primary perception, secondary willpower? Or if you want it more general, will those SP only be useable on skills where you at SOME point had primary 10/secondary 4? Being allowed to use those reallocated SP on skills with a worse mapping than they were gained on would be unfair, so that's not an option. Again, please give a solution that is not case by case.

Has CCP considered that this skill change for carriers makes attribute remapping extremely cumbersome? the need to train JDO before the actual carrier skill means that there has to be an additional Int/per remap wedged before the Per/will remap needed to train carriers itself. As such it becomes much more difficult to say, convert a freighter alt into a carrier alt, as you would have to first remap into int/per to train up the jump skills.

Or say, a player who has decided to train for carriers from his existing battleship would need to remap twice to avoid losing upwards of 17 days of training time.

While i understand CCP wants to gate player ship progression to an extent, please also realize your current attribute system is poo and most of the skill changes described for tech 2 ships might increase the training time needed to get into those ships because your Training time estimates made no distinction between INT/MEM skills and PER/WILL skills.

What this does mean is that a dedicated training alt will be able to fly tech 2 ships even faster than progressing "mains" as they can afford to stay on a INT mem remap longer to train up the Tech 2 pre reqs.

That's why I said something along the lines of 'unless it's a dedicated Alt char pretty much trained offline' in my earlier posts.

We're currently talking about regular battleship pilots thinking about taking the next step towards capitals. Natural character progression and stuff (yeah i know it's really not en vogue anymore) , not all that Alt char bull.

I train Amarr Carrier to level 1, as per the current prerequisites. After the change, I still have Amarr Carrier at 1, but none of the new prerequisites. So if I did not have jump drive operation to 5, etc, I still won't have any of that, however I will still be able to magically fly amarr carriers.

There is one thing i want to ask, my alt can fly a freighter, but they dont have the advanced spaceship command to 5. Is the policy still that if you could fly it before, you can fly it now?

slightly annoying in a away as a lot of ppl spent time training LONGER for something thats going to give everyone else a A LOT shorter time to train.

Don't we get some sort of compensation for that? fine we get a skillpoint increase, but in terms of lost time and actually gaining anything more, we get nothing.

Actually it mostly collides with their 'if you can fly it now..' policy, which might be the main reason for not doing things in a sensible way.

Sadly.

Not seeing how doing this as suggested is more sensible unless you thought the prior prerequisite system made no sense either.

I think you might want to wipe that smug smile off your face. A lot of die hard fans don't like this -tieracide-cookie-cutter ship-let's make this WoW- attitude that CCP keeps coming back to even after mass cancelations of subscriptions.

Or, I suppose you will laugh all the way to the bank, as the children flock to the latest easy game to master. (Until they too get bored, and leave en mass.)

You get the use of the ship before the change.

Seriously now. Have you tried telling the same crap to the guy selling you your computer?

Not sure where you're living in, but have you noticed the transition from national to EU wide driving licenses? Pretty much summer ship skill revamp in a nutshell.

Indeed.

So you're saying that while we have to accept that in RL costly investments can be worthless (via your interpretation, my 2 years of using my computer have no value, so the 800$ difference between buying it 2 years ago and someone buying it now are worthless) or prerequisites can be changed (yes, i would REALLY have liked to drive 125ccm motorbikes when i was 16, something teens may do today), it is completely unacceptable in something much less important than RL like a computer game?

You seriously need to work on your priorities, mate.

This has been contrary to CCP's position for quite a while now. From their standpoint you make the choice to gain a capability and even if that capability is changed to no longer be applicable in some situations, so long as it remains and can be used you retain it. It's no different here that it is in the countless changes that have happened before.

Repetition does not make your position any better.

You can stop beating the lasagna now.

So if I have all racial frigates+cruisers at 5 destroyers+BC's 5 all T2 at 4 including command ships at 4 I'll get all the command links at 4??? (actual command ship level).

Little weird this specific case for me, can't really understand what I'm going to keep or what I will have to train on top (links?).

Edit: I know I'm lazy but it's not flash news

I have a question...

After the change it is stated that if I could fly a ship I will still be able to fly it...

Now this is the scenario post change: the ship I am flying requires additional skills. I can still fly it and all is good. I get podded. What happens now? Will the new clone be able to fly the same ship or will it require to train the missing skills?

It might seem a stupid question but unless I get a response I am not totally comfortable.

Well, what to say about all thosee changes and where to even begin?

Introduction of racial Destroyers and Battlecruiser skills - good idea, since it incorporates them into a skill tree instead of being branches that fell off.

Removal of Battleship V requirement for capital ships - good in theory, capitals are not T2 Battleships so that didn't made much sense, but will leave some capital pilots uhappy because they trained Battleship V for nothing and we'll see more noobs in capitals.

Changes to Command Ship skill requirements - to me, this is by far the worst change out of them all. Leave the skill requirements same as they are, maybe (and just maybe) add Wing Command IV, but tie the Warfare skills to ships themselves instead (so a Damnation would need Armored warfare V and Vulture would need Siege Warfare V).

Changes to various T2 ship skills - makes sense for EAFs, dictors and hictors, not so much with HACs. Energy Grid Upgrades and Energy Management?? Rather random skills to pick. Cloaking IV for Recons? Must have for Force Recons anyway, but it would make more sense if Combat Recons had Targeting V as a requirement instead (whether you should separate the skills or not is another question though).

Changes to Industrials - makes sense as part of tiericide initiative, I would like to see CCP revamping existing Industrials into different roles, much like they did with Mining Barges. So, for example, Wreathe would have agility of a Frigate, Hoarder would have tank of a Battleship and Mammoth would have far greater cargo bay than the other two. Also, Freighters are not T2 Industrials so I don't see why you had to train Industrials to V to fly a Freighter (same situation as with Capitals and Battleships). However, since Jump Freighters ARE T2 Freighters, having Freighter skill trained to V SHOULD be a requirement to fly them. But I would compensate this skill requirement increase by both reimbursing people who can already fly Jump Freighters and reducing training multiplier for all T1 Freighter skills to 8.


Mining Barge changes - seems OK to incorporate Mining Frigate and ORE Industrial skills into the mining tree. Also, since Orca is used for much more than conducting mining operations, I don't mind Mining Barge V requirement being thrown out (but it could still require Industry V, I guess).

And what do you need to train racial cruisers? Racial frig at IV.